Bill Meltzer: Meltzer's Musings: Defining Toughness

Dave Brown one of the the toughest SOB's to ever play. Loved him on the Flyers as I am sure his teammates did as well.

Brind'Amour. Say n'mour.

To write your blog you have the best resource....Ex-players. For anyone that's been in a dressing room, you know who and what toughness is...you also know the "sheep" . There are just some guys that make you go WTF!!! hence why guys like Lappy and Berube were absolutely loved by their teammates.

In terms of best fighter, while Dave Schultz was probably the most notorious in NHL history (maybe league history, after Probert), Dave Brown was the best Flyer that I can remember. His left hands just hurt people (his hands are massive, by the way). He wasn't the fastest thrower in team history (Berube, Tocchet), but every punch that he landed was an absolute bomb.

Vorobyov looked like he was top pp and pk. We got a red army coming

I was at a Rags/Flyers game early 90's. 91 or 92 and Dave Brown beat Domi to a pulp. He hit him with about 5 consecutive left hand jack hammers.

Brown very rarely lost a fight. He was incredibly strong and had a long reach.

I was at a Rags/Flyers game early 90's. 91 or 92 and Dave Brown beat Domi to a pulp. He hit him with about 5 consecutive left hand jack hammers.

Brown very rarely lost a fight. He was incredibly strong and had a long reach.
- PLindbergh31

Brown was the guy that comes to mind when I think fighter...he just knew how to fight....Ben Wilson used to just scare guys....Wendel Clark still says that's the toughest fight he ever had.

In terms of best fighter, while Dave Schultz was probably the most notorious in NHL history (maybe league history, after Probert), Dave Brown was the best Flyer that I can remember. His left hands just hurt people (his hands are massive, by the way). He wasn't the fastest thrower in team history (Berube, Tocchet), but every punch that he landed was an absolute bomb.
- jmatchett383

Dave Brown was one of the guys when his gloves hit the ice you knew a beating was about to occur. He may have taken a few also but he always got a few good ones on the opponent.

As for Lappy I loved his heart. The guy just went out there and gave every ounce every shift.

Brown was the guy that comes to mind when I think fighter...he just knew how to fight....Ben Wilson used to just scare guys....Wendel Clark still says that's the toughest fight he ever had.
- landros 2

Behn Wilson was a tough SOB. Even later in his career with the Blackhawks he could still throw them.

Behn Wilson was a tough SOB. Even later in his career with the Blackhawks he could still throw them.
- PLindbergh31

Behn and Brad McCrimmon were two of the scariest DMen in the league those two made other teams hate to play against them

Sami kapanen was a Finnish warrior too

Behn and Brad McCrimmon were two of the scariest DMen in the league those two made other teams hate to play against them
- dragonoffrost

McCrimmon was another really physical dman. He was a very good player as well. A shame what happened to him.

Early 90's the Devils had a goon named Troy Crowder. He got the best of Bob Probert a few times. I wonder if Dave Brown ever fought him. I'm sure he did.

I define tough guys as guys who do the following:
Do whatever it takes to win
Stand up for their teammates
Play through pain
Lead through the example set by their work ethic
Never back down

With the above in mind, here are some of the toughest Flyers of all time.

Barry Ashbee
Bobby Clarke
Bill Barber
Dave Schultz
Paul Holmgren
Brad Marsh
Dave Poulin
Rod Brind'amour
Dave Brown
Jason Smith
Derian Hatcher
Kimmo Timonen
Ian Lapperiere
Wayne Simmonds

I define tough guys as guys who do the following:
Do whatever it takes to win
Stand up for their teammates
Play through pain
Lead through the example set by their work ethic
Never back down

With the above in mind, here are some of the toughest Flyers of all time.

Barry Ashbee
Bobby Clarke
Bill Barber
Paul Holmgren
Brad Marsh
Dave Poulin
Rod Brind'amour
Dave Brown
Jason Smith
Derian Hatcher
Kimmo Timonen
Ian Lapperiere
Wayne Simmonds
- BiggE

The Hammer has to be on this list!

Sorry to go off-topic so early, but I was thinking about this in the shower and wanted to get some opinions.

There are a lot of people, both on this board and on other boards (as well as in league offices) who are crying about the need to increase scoring. While I agree that scoring could be increased, my question is simply: Why? Why do people feel the need to increase scoring for the game to be entertaining?

To an extreme, imagine a very dull game with putrid goaltending where there is a ton of neutral zone play, with each team getting only 15-20 shots but the score being 6-5. Now, that’s a fairly high-scoring game, but it was be a very boring game for the most part. To the other extreme, imagine a game with tons of speed, hard hitting, great goaltending with scoring chance after scoring chance, each team having 45-50 shots on goal, and the final being a 2-1 game. In terms of excitement, that would be a much more exciting game.

Now, all things equal (which, of course, they are not), more shots would equal more goals, meaning that more goals would be the result of a more exciting game. But again, the speed and skill is what drives the game. So I have heard people complain that the league’s unwillingness to “call things by the book” would lead to a more goals. I disagree.

In the late 80s/early 90s, even as the butterfly was being adopted and goalies were wearing bigger pads, you had guys like Hull, Gretzky, and Lemieux putting up huge offensive numbers. In order to draw a penalty in those days, you had to be completely obvious. Guys were continually hooked, grabbed, held, and slashed without a call at all, and no one had an issue with league-wide offensive output.

Today, as much as people are “taking away from skill players” or what have you, there are more power plays generally than there were in the 80s/early 90s. Generally speaking, a team is more likely to score on a power play and at even strength. And you know what? Unless you have a personal interest in the game, a power play is the most boring part of hockey. Upon gaining the zone, the offensive team generally stands in place, passing around the perimeter. The defensive team stays in a box formation, and if they gain possession, they just haphazardly throw the puck down the ice. So, while a power play is more likely to result in a goal than a “skilled” 2 minutes of even strength, the result would be much more boring.

So, again, why do we feel the need to increase scoring? If the issue is to call more penalties in order to force teams to adapt to not hooking/holding/etc. then that’s fine, as long as you’re willing to watch several months of games with 20 penalties per team. Even after the fact, there will still be a host (6-7) of penalties per game, again, if the rule book is enforced to the letter (it is 100% impossible to play 60 minutes of high-level competitive hockey without taking a few penalties). It simply cannot be done. No, I have never played professional hockey, but I have played semi-pro against NHL-drafted players, and I can attest to this happening at that level.

I have also heard people complaining that the league is attempting to level the playing field between 1st line players and 4th line players. I would argue that 3rd/4th line players in today’s game are generally just closer in skill to 1st/2nd line players than they were in the 80s/90s. The “goon” role is all but gone, and players today are generally required to be able to skate an effective shift without being a liability to the team. Again, in the 80s/90s, a less skilled player would grope his way through a shift without being a liability. That is less the case today, and with all of the training and clinics of today’s players versus the alcoholism and chain smoking of yesteryear’s players, the discrepancy in skill is more based on the players than the officials.

Admittedly, I have done no research on the subject or numbers, and these are simply the observations from my eyes and ears. I have watched hockey avidly from the early 90s, watched full games from the 1980s, and have seen the game evolve during that time. So I am sure that there are some stat people out there who will try to refute every piece that I have said, and if that’s what gets you off, go for it. Regardless, my point still stands: Why do people feel a need to increase scoring in order to improve the game?

/end novel

I define tough guys as guys who do the following:
Do whatever it takes to win
Stand up for their teammates
Play through pain
Lead through the example set by their work ethic
Never back down

With the above in mind, here are some of the toughest Flyers of all time.

Barry Ashbee
Bobby Clarke
Bill Barber
Paul Holmgren
Brad Marsh
Dave Poulin
Rod Brind'amour
Dave Brown
Jason Smith
Derian Hatcher
Kimmo Timonen
Ian Lapperiere
Wayne Simmonds
- BiggE

Nice list and most of these guys had a C or A on their Jersey.

The Hammer has to be on this list!
- PLindbergh31

Dave Schultz fought, and definitely stood up for his teammates, but he was also a heel, kind of like a Tie Domi or Darcy Tucker type. In fact, on the Cup teams, he was probably the 3rd best fighter on the team, and every one of those guys had each other's backs.

THE HEIGHTS ARE TOO LOW

THE HEIGHTS ARE TOO LOW
- Giroux_Is_God

Do we need the more of the high for them?

Brind'Amour. Say n'mour.
- Girouxy

n'mour

Dave Schultz fought, and definitely stood up for his teammates, but he was also a heel, kind of like a Tie Domi or Darcy Tucker type. In fact, on the Cup teams, he was probably the 3rd best fighter on the team, and every one of those guys had each other's backs.
- jmatchett383

But Schultz wasn't just a fighter. He contributed in other ways. He had a 20 goal season as well.

But Schultz wasn't just a fighter. He contributed in other ways. He had a 20 goal season as well.
- PLindbergh31

Yes, he had other skills as well. His main one was intimidation, which was large part of what allowed him to score 20 goals. Keep in mind that Max Talbot and Trent Klatt are also players who once scored 20 goals in a season (not that they were awful players). Primarily, Dave Schultz was a player whose main job was to punch people in the face while players attempted to punch his face. While that takes balls and you have to be tough both mentally and physically, he's not as tough as a player like Kimmo Timonen or Jason Smith. In fact, although he was definitely a great teammate, his antics always made me feel like he also fought for some self-serving interests as well as the team's.

Sorry to go off-topic so early, but I was thinking about this in the shower and wanted to get some opinions.


/end novel
- jmatchett383

I dont have the ability to read it all this early in the morning...but ill get back to it

I don't see how you can discuss the Flyers and toughness and not bring up the E Train.

Especially in his early days, Lindros would just run guys into the 5th row. And he could fight like a beast.